More 5245 grief

[dourobob]

Hi
I posted a topic earlier about air in the glass fuel bowl on my 5245 Zetor . So far I have removed and cleaned the fuel tank, replaced the fuel line from the tank to the glass bowl, replaced the gasket on the glass bowl, replaced the gaskets on the banjo fittings, replaced the fuel line to the filters and replaced the hand primer pump BUT I am still getting air in the glass float bowl.

I have not yet changed the fuel line going from the filter to the injector pump (this was changed a while ago by a Zetor mechanic who has retired and moved and it seems a tight squeeze to get at it - so I want to cover all of the more accessible areas first).

Does anyone have an exact picture or diagram of the part that the primer pump mounts on? I only have a manual for a 5011 and the diagram in it does not look like what I am seeing on the 5245. Is there something in this mounting piece that could be causing an air leak?

I have posted a picture of the part I am referring to on http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/dourobob/?action=view&current=FuelPrimerPump3.jpg
You may be able to see from the picture that my FEL mounting bracket is directly in the way of a decent view so I am doing the work by feel as much as by sight.

Any advice welcomed.

Bob

 

[ZETORMATIC!]

DUROBOB, Your primer pump is open, it should be screwed down not extended You dont seem to have any fuel leaks thats a good thing fuel leaks mean holes holes mean air you can see what i mean69) DOES THE TRACTOR START? Have you tried some "help " from a can of starting fluid? If the tractor starts, try looking for drips or bubbles coming from places. Then you can concentrate on these areas

 

[dourobob]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, the pump was open when I took the shot but not when the tractor was running (it was screwed down nice and tight). Still trying to find the source of the air leak.

Maybe I am missing somethingreally obvious here. Am I correct in thinking that it must come from some location before the filters if it is showing up in the float bowl??

Bob

 

[alan]

Bob if you are not having problems with the engine stopping/misfiring/lack of power don't worry about seeing air bubbles in the glass bowl it is normal to see them!

 

[dourobob]

Is this true?? Is a little air OK??

All of the folks I have spoken too here (Central Ontario Canada) say there should be NO AIR IN THE FUEL SYSTEM.

Are there any 5245 owners out there who are experiencing the same thing with air in the float bowl.

Because I have been stranded in the farthest field from the barn and shop on a couple of occassions I am really reluctant to take the tractor out with this air issue unresolved.

Looking for reassurances.

Bob

 

[Renze]

Hmm... Let's try this:

Take off the fuel line from the tank to the pump, put it to your mouth and blow in it. If you can hear a loud bubbling in the tank, it should be o.k. but if you press your lungs out of your chest, there is rubbish from the inside of the tank, plugging up your fuel line. Use an air compressor and blow into the hose, short blasts work best. You can hear of the bubble noise when the line is cleared.

And: yes the glass bowl and primer pump are mounted to a connection piece that has a washer behind it. There are 3 banjo bolts on it, 1 mounts the primer pump, 1 mounts a fuel suction line and 1 mounts a fuel pressure line, one of the last 2 is a longer bolt that mounts the whole thing to the fuel pump itself. this long bolt has a washer on both ends.

my 5245 had the same problem for years, we allways had to prime it with the hand pump before starting it. My brother changed all suction and pressure hoses 2 years ago, i changed all copper washers last year and this spring, the tractor started smoking and i discovered a burst injector return line spraying diesel on the exhaust manifold. After i changed ALL fuel return lines as well, it purrs like a cat, without any misfiring at no load at max rpm. it starts right away without hand priming.

If i was you, i'd just drop off that loader frame so you can have a good look around so you can make 100% sure you do it right, put on a new primer pump (the mechanically driven primer pump, NOT the hand primer pump) as well as every washer and hose you can find.

 

[alasdair bailey]

call urself a mechanic rip that shit up out of there

 

[dourobob]

call urself a mechanic rip that shit up out of there

Thanks "alasdair bailey" for your insightful assistance
I don't recall ever claiming to be a mechanic but I am willing to try and, with the help of a number of folks on this board, I believe I am making some progress with my 5245.
I am not ready to tackle removing the loader until I try a few more fixes.

Bob

 

[hayesy34]

Hi every one.
Been reading through the posts and I have tried all the things which have been mention but no joy.
I have a 5245 with a single fuel filter and a glass bowl filter.
Tractor runs fine when started but if left overnight it does not start with out 1 pump from the manual hand pump replaced all hoses and washers and fuel cap but it still seeps away. I can't see any leaks.
Does any one have any ideas spoke to Zetor and they said its a common thing but didn't over a solution

 

[hala]

I had the same problem and modified the fuel system, please see

https://zetorworld.com/index.php?threads/fuel-flow-back-solution.2859/

Since rebuilding, my tector starts instantly, even after standing for weeks. I have used my Zetor 4340 in the forest for about 150 hours since rebuilding the fuel system and it works absolute perfect no matter if it works in heavy or light work, high or low rpm.
I see no reason why it should not work on your tractor as the system is quite similar. It is vital to have fresh hooses in the total system, and do not forget the backflow hooses from the injectors.
(Reasently Tigerloop launched a special auto model).
Hazze

 

[askinner]

Bob, air in the glass is completely normal, it is not actually air you are seeing, it is a vacuum being pulled because of the action of the lift pump. The fuel just takes a little bit of time to get through the line and fill that void.
If you are not having trouble starting it, there is no air getting in! As Renze said, your problem with it stopping on you will be rubbish in the tank blocking the pickup.
If all the hoses and connections are good, these tractors will start perfectly every time, no need for any other modifications. I can speak first hand for that

 

[hala]

Skin 7245 and others

Please open your minds! It is not a iniquity rebuilding and improving a Zetor even if it is differing from the genuine an original Zetor and the original not working perfect!!!
What we all want is, in all conditions, a working tractor.
My Zetor is great beside the fuel system

Hazze

 

[forterra9641]

i agree with skin on this one. have had many ur 1 tractors and you cure the problem by changing hoses and copper whashers. mine did start perfectly every time without any rebuild of the fuel system.

 

[hve]

Come on guys, play nice, both repair and modify are both equally acceptable solutions to the problem.
lucky for me, my UR1 is gravity feed so i never get air sucking in..... just diesel leaking out a little but not bad enough to bother fixing......... yet.
My personal quick fix for a under mount tank UR1 would to be to fit an electric (facet or similar) low pressure lift pump as close as practical to the tank, switched on by the ignition..... this way you always have pressure at all the points that may otherwise suck air if there is a slight leak.
Personally i would not run any diesel (car truck tractor or otherwise) without a lift pump before the filter and injector pump......
and yet all late 80's and 90's Jap diesels with rotary pumps rely solely on the injector pump to suck diesel out of the tank and through the filters..... it is just stupid cost cutting at the factory and not in any way a good idea. in NZ when the low sulphur (and also low aromatic)diesel came out a few years ago pretty much every used diesel car on the road (mostly from the 80's and 90's) broke down due to previously happy but swollen seals, shrinking in the low aromatic fuel , and if they sucked air in you got stranded...... if they had lift pumps you would see the pool of diesel on the ground but they would never have broken down at the traffic lights or half way up a hill.

I found out the hard way if this happens on a Nissan Vanette you can smash the high speed governor shuttle clean out the side of the pump.......... the reason is, it is a hydraulic governor running in diesel, if there is air in the pump housing it over-through and bangs against the cover plate, until the 2 m6 bolts brake off and your wife is left stranded on the express way while you are out of town on business for two weeks 1000km away
this would not have happened had there had been a pressure feed to the injector pump!

As least the Zetors kind of have a remote lift pump, all be it in the injector pump housing, but not internally plumbed! so at least the filters are under pressure!

Yes, a little swirl of bubbles in the glass bowl is normal .... at least if the lift pump is doing it's job,
However nothing beats piece of mind, when it is a long walk home!!!!!!
and if that means some simple modifications to improve the factory system, then go for it.

 

[hala]

Sorry if not playing nice that was certainly not my intention.
Hayesy that started this topic described his problem hard to start after standing a day or so.
Diesel contains bound air. When diesel is subjected to vacuum air is released in the form of micro bubbles. These air bubbles are collected in the system, i.e. in the glass bowel. (This is a classic problem when lifting up the fuel to a boiler burner when the tank is below the burner.
When the engine stops these air pockets might cause or help the fuel flowing back into the tank. The engine starts not as easy as if the fuel has filled up the entire system. You can of cause run the starter a bit more and let the lift pump fill the system again. As a matter of fact my manual says run the starter for some ten seconds before starting the engine.
In the winter morning with lots of snow and minus 25 degrees you will appreciate not running the starter to long. You will just appreciate the engine starting as quick as possible and begin removing the snow.
I believe this might be the reason why the Zetor dealers in Scandinavia modified the fuel system in the nineties before delivering to the end customers. The way (one way) they modified the system was to let the return hose to the tank goes via a small extra tank above the pump level and after stopping the engine this extra tank could gravity feed back fuel to the system. My way of modifying the system works better on my tractor and also deal with the released air bubbles before reaching the pump. Also different diesel qualities contains different amount of bonded air. In my system fuel circulates in a shorter loop and the temperature in the fuel will be a bit higher which might not be a disadvantage in the winter.
The bottom line is that air might or will come in to the system even with new hoses an copper washes.
Critical views is most appreciated.
Hazze

 

[hve]

The bottom line is that air might or will come in to the system even with new hoses an copper washes.

Indeed........... it is not so much a matter of "If" as "When"

i will stick to my 6745 with Gravity feed from the tank
I can afford the $5 worth of diesel that leaks out over 12 months

 

[hayesy34]

Hi every one. Thank you all for you're replys
I just found one thing which I have missed which was the o ring which the main filter slides into. I only replaced this a few weeks ago so didn't think about it but it has desinstergrated so have ordered another one and see where that leads me if no joy I will convert to the electric pump

 

[hala]

An electrical pump is a good choice but make sure you get one with a built in one way valve that will help minimizing the fuel flow back. Place it close to the tank.
Good luck
Hazze

 

[funkinalive]

for what its worth, our 7245 and 6911 both have to be primed after sitting for a day. they will start without priming but you will have to crank them for about 10 seconds until the system "pressurizes". once its started it has no problems restarting throughout the day. also looking at the glass, ours also seem to have a "swirl" of air in them as the machine is running. personally i dont mind priming the pump on a cold start, and i really love the fact the i have never had to "bleed" a zetor system as they are open(return to tank) systems, so replacing and cleaning fuel filters is really no headache, just pump until you hear fuel return into the tank.

 

[hayesy34]

Hi everyone
Spent most of the night fitting a new filter and cleaning the tank. Tractor did not start in the morning but primed it started then left it and has now started for the last two days now won't start with out priming so I think it's a faulty lift pump as I thinnk the seals around the valves have gone. Hence why some times working and other times not. I only replaced this about 2 years ago from Zetor so I have a brough a universal electronic pump so see how that goes
And I think the tank is peeling on the inside as the glass bowl still gets very dirty quick and blocks up.

 

[hve]

Tractor did not start in the morning but primed it started then left it and has now started for the last two days now won't start with out priming so I think it's a faulty lift pump

Could also be just the Hand primer sucking in Air, rather than the main lift pump, either way the Electric pump will fix it....... best to put a line filter between the tank and the electric pump if the tank is rusty/dirty or you will get crap in the electric pump valves.

Cheers
Steve

 

[dave_peters]

After reading this thread, I would suspect that you have a bacterial growth either in your bulk tank or your tractor tank, this creates a black gunge which blocks filters rapidly. It can be easily cured with an additive available from your tractor dealer, and each time you have a diesel delivery add some to the tank.
We have had this problem since I retired and no longer use much fuel . I am told it's due to the ethanol content in modern diesel.

 

[hve]

I am told it's due to the ethanol content in modern diesel.

Not sure i would believe there is high Ethanol content in modern diesel, there can be some in poor quality BioDiesel but there should be none in Mineral based Diesel, and certainly not more than old high Sulphur diesel.

In any case, you could be on to something, but this problem has been around as long as diesel engines have been around, it is called "Diesel Bug" and is most commonly a problem when there is water contamination in the diesel, (big problem on Boats) and a slimy green gel is produced that blocks pipes and filters. it is fatal in modern CRDi diesel systems, and just a pain in older stuff.

if there is any sign of green slime in any of the diesel lines you need to treat the bulk tank and treat the Tractor tank.

and discard and replace all the filters.

 

[hala]

Interesting link about Diesel Bug treatment without any chemicals

http://dieselsolutions.co.nz/debug-faqs.shtml

What do you think ? A solution for tractor users having this problem.

Hazze

 

[dave_peters]

I believe I'm right in saying that all diesel in UK has to have a percentage of bioethanol included by law.
You are correct when you say moisture, either from condensation or contamination is a major contributing factor.
Sorry Hazze, but I cant open your link.

 

[hala]

Try to visit the main adress http://dieselsolutions.co.nz and click Watch the DE-BUG 5 minute video...
In Scandinavia with our cold-warm-cold weather, water condensation is our biggest enemy in diesel. A real bug creator. Up to now I am using "Fuel Set" however quite expensive.

Hazze

 

[Renze]

in 2008 when they first started mixing this crap in, at work we had a lot of work from broken common rail systems, both on Cummins and JD engines. All because of the biodiesel mixed in, the stuff is hygroscopic (absorbs moisture from the air) and then bacteria make it like snot. CR systems dont like it. Havent heard issues with inline Motorpal pumps yet, but i guess it will plug up fuel filters...

 

[hve]

Hi Renze, Bio Diesel is getting better and the standards have been re written in the last 4 years.

I will note here that Bio Ethanol, is ONLY added to Petrol, and that Biodiesel is added to Diesel and should have all the Ethanol (used in the production process to remove water and Glycerol) removed by hot vacuum filtration. (Spec for Ethanol contamination is 0.2% Max in B100, however typically this level is only .001% EOH)

In Europe the test Standard for Biodiesel is the highest in the world, with a 10 hour Rancimat requirement, while in USA the requirement is only 3 hours! most other countries call for 6 hours as a minimum.
Special additives are added to the B100 (100% Bio Diesel) before blending off to B5 (5% Biodiesel/95% Mineral diesel) the additives prevent oxidation and sedimentation, other additives are used to stop freezing in cold weather and standards differ from country to country, in NZ cloud point requirement is only minus 2Deg.C (or there abouts) and only added during winter! so if you are storing fuel (any fuel) it should be used within the season it was purchased.

Also of note, Biodiesel's are not tolerant to Copper!!!!! All copper pipes, brass taps, Copper O rings, etc must be removed from the fulesystem to avoid reaction with copper and Gelling of the Biodiesel....... again some manufacturers use a special additive to reduce this effect for fuel passing[/] a copper O ring on a banjo fitting, however it is not going to be effective enough if your tractor (like mine) has a brass fuel tap in the bottom of the tank! ......... Modern fuel systems do not have any copper for this reason .... CRDi included.

The De-bug magnetic filter system ( http://dieselsolutions.co.nz/installation.shtml ) is interesting, and not all that expensive, i would like to here from some body that has tried it............ however it will not remove water, so a water trap must be fitted before the De-Bug unit ........ there is a nice flow chart on the website.
Also see:

http://dieselsolutions.co.nz/how-to-purchase.shtml

 

[hve]

Some good background on Biodiesel:

http://www.dieselsolutions.co.nz/cmscontent/File/Myths_Facts.pdf

if you cannot open the link i can email it to you as a PDF

 

[bobnz]

Debug was developed locally in NZ and is now used worldwide.
Basically the device is placed in the fuel line and the secret is in the construction of a chamber with an intense magnetic arrangement that kills the "diesel bug" microbes.

As fuel is returned to the tank with spill off in the pump and at the injectors, over time a much of the older diesel in the tank will have been circulated through the Debug devise.

Installations using diesel bug report good results but if a motor is left for long periods without running of course the bug can grow in the tank.

The link/s above appears to be working at the moment, for me anyway.
Debugs did to come in various sizes.