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- DFERRERA777
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HAS ANYONE PUT A TURBO ON A ZETOR 5011/ AGRIPOWER 5000 3 CYL, THANKS FOR ANY INPUT
- Thread starter dferrera777
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- Renze
Machinery:
1976 5718
1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
2.7 liter at 2200 rpm, is about a 1.5 liter diesel at 4500rpm.. (with lower rpm you'll get a better specific cylinder fill rate)
Try to find one of an early VW Golf 1.5 TD, Ford/PSA 1.6 TDCI/HDI or from an industrial engine of the size of the Zetor engine.
I have no experience with putting used turbos on tractor engines, but thats what my gut feeling tells me. (The Golf 1.5 put out 50hp at 4000rpm and 70 with turbo: The Zetor also puts out 50hp which means that there is more air flow through a slower running, bigger engine with bigger valves, even though the displacement x rpm ratio, is higher on the passenger car engine)
Try to find one of an early VW Golf 1.5 TD, Ford/PSA 1.6 TDCI/HDI or from an industrial engine of the size of the Zetor engine.
I have no experience with putting used turbos on tractor engines, but thats what my gut feeling tells me. (The Golf 1.5 put out 50hp at 4000rpm and 70 with turbo: The Zetor also puts out 50hp which means that there is more air flow through a slower running, bigger engine with bigger valves, even though the displacement x rpm ratio, is higher on the passenger car engine)
An interesting project and comments to date. I have never put a turbo on a diesel tractor engine but the characteristics of various turbos are tailor made to suit the application. The wide variation of custom turbine and compressor blades is a world of graphs and data.
Because a tractor is running more of less at a steady rev state when working ( which is generally when you want more power) then many of the considerations used when matching to turbo to a car engine can be ignored..
For cars reducing Turbo lag during acceleration from low revs to peak output required a set up with quick turbo spin up.
Hence a smaller exhaust gas turbine entry port to give good gas speed at lower revs. This can also tends to provide higher back pressure at high revs, reduced efficiency and can increase heat markedly. Recent developments in Turbo technology has seen variable port tubos becoming available.
I think the tractor application may benefit from use of a turbo which allows good exhaust flow with more generously sized exhaust gas port to the turbine. The aim is to get boost at the say 1800 - 2200 rev range and keep it free breathing as possible.
I agree with the suggestion of a turbo from a similar sized and output industrial diesel engine as generally they are designed to run at a fairly constant load / rev range. ( acceleration and low rev boost are not a design feature that compromise is allowed for.)
Any mismatch in turbo to application may show up with greater heating so a bit of care and getting experience of others is well worth while.
Car turbos are much more common and no doubt a practical choice for that reason. If a bit of small budget fun is the aim then a car turbo as suggested make a lot of practical sense, particularly if the boost level is kept low.
Water cooled turbo bearings help look after the oil for the engine and reduce the formation of ash. Desirable but you can probably get away with a turbo without that provision if the tractor is not worked hard for longer periods. Definitely a good oil supply for the bearing is needed as well as a large diameter free flowing direct oil return to the sump. The oil out of the bearing needs space to flow away as it will be foam.
Some wind down oiling system for the turbo bearing is particularly important is you use a smaller turbo as the revs will be very high. If the motor stalls under heavy load the gas flow will be very high and the turbo will be screaming in the revs. if oil supply just stops at this condition with a motor stall,them you will cook the turbo bearings.
A turbo timer is a waste of time under these conditions and is messy to fit to a diesel tractor such as a Zetor . A post oiler provides oil flow after the oil pump ceases to supply .
Various types can be found on trucks. Some extra reservoir controlled by ball valves to allow oil to the turbo immediately on start up but gather a quantity of oil and continue to release it to the turbo bearing when the oil supply pressure drops.
Having a chat to a truck or diesel turbo specialist may provide a few useful hints as to what choices you would be best to follow.
Because a tractor is running more of less at a steady rev state when working ( which is generally when you want more power) then many of the considerations used when matching to turbo to a car engine can be ignored..
For cars reducing Turbo lag during acceleration from low revs to peak output required a set up with quick turbo spin up.
Hence a smaller exhaust gas turbine entry port to give good gas speed at lower revs. This can also tends to provide higher back pressure at high revs, reduced efficiency and can increase heat markedly. Recent developments in Turbo technology has seen variable port tubos becoming available.
I think the tractor application may benefit from use of a turbo which allows good exhaust flow with more generously sized exhaust gas port to the turbine. The aim is to get boost at the say 1800 - 2200 rev range and keep it free breathing as possible.
I agree with the suggestion of a turbo from a similar sized and output industrial diesel engine as generally they are designed to run at a fairly constant load / rev range. ( acceleration and low rev boost are not a design feature that compromise is allowed for.)
Any mismatch in turbo to application may show up with greater heating so a bit of care and getting experience of others is well worth while.
Car turbos are much more common and no doubt a practical choice for that reason. If a bit of small budget fun is the aim then a car turbo as suggested make a lot of practical sense, particularly if the boost level is kept low.
Water cooled turbo bearings help look after the oil for the engine and reduce the formation of ash. Desirable but you can probably get away with a turbo without that provision if the tractor is not worked hard for longer periods. Definitely a good oil supply for the bearing is needed as well as a large diameter free flowing direct oil return to the sump. The oil out of the bearing needs space to flow away as it will be foam.
Some wind down oiling system for the turbo bearing is particularly important is you use a smaller turbo as the revs will be very high. If the motor stalls under heavy load the gas flow will be very high and the turbo will be screaming in the revs. if oil supply just stops at this condition with a motor stall,them you will cook the turbo bearings.
A turbo timer is a waste of time under these conditions and is messy to fit to a diesel tractor such as a Zetor . A post oiler provides oil flow after the oil pump ceases to supply .
Various types can be found on trucks. Some extra reservoir controlled by ball valves to allow oil to the turbo immediately on start up but gather a quantity of oil and continue to release it to the turbo bearing when the oil supply pressure drops.
Having a chat to a truck or diesel turbo specialist may provide a few useful hints as to what choices you would be best to follow.
Another consideration is the increased temperature created by boost and increased fuel supplied by adjusting the injector pump. Exhaust Gas Temperature sensors can be fitted if serious boost is applied. A meter on the dash can then let you monitor the climbing temperature. You should find lots of info about that on the net. ( EGT Probe ) . Too much heat = loss of piston top.
A normally aspirated diesel does not have boost compensation on the injector pump so when you increase the pump settings to allow more fuel flow then a bit of black smoke on acceleration can be expected as the turbo will not have had time to wind up and deliver more air to burn the increased fuel supplied.
There is a famous Fearsome Turbo Zetor that does the international circuits in Tractor Pull competitions. ( started out as a modified crystal ). That is impressive with an exhaust cloud that covers the crowd watching and can even hide the tractor with its hundreds of HP. The turbo on that is massive - but that is a competition vehicle with loads of expert experimentation. He also blows thing up from time to time. All good fun- no doubt about it.
I have watched it perform and the crowd following is great. It puts Zetor on the map.
My 1 cents worth. There must be many who can share their successes and other learning experiences.
A normally aspirated diesel does not have boost compensation on the injector pump so when you increase the pump settings to allow more fuel flow then a bit of black smoke on acceleration can be expected as the turbo will not have had time to wind up and deliver more air to burn the increased fuel supplied.
There is a famous Fearsome Turbo Zetor that does the international circuits in Tractor Pull competitions. ( started out as a modified crystal ). That is impressive with an exhaust cloud that covers the crowd watching and can even hide the tractor with its hundreds of HP. The turbo on that is massive - but that is a competition vehicle with loads of expert experimentation. He also blows thing up from time to time. All good fun- no doubt about it.
I have watched it perform and the crowd following is great. It puts Zetor on the map.
My 1 cents worth. There must be many who can share their successes and other learning experiences.
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- DFERRERA777
LOVE IT..THANKS GUYS FOR THE TECHNICAL INPUT ALREADY. I DONT PLAN TO USE THE TRACTOR FOR FARM / BUSINESS USE SO OVERALL RELIABILITY ISN'T A TOTAL ISSUE BUT ID LIKE TO GO FAIRLY CONSERVATIVELY ON THE TURBO SIZE AND BOOST TO AVOID REALLY STRAINING THE MOTOR.
ITS JUST SO NICE TO HEAR THAT TURBO SPOOL UP ON A DIESEL... : ) : )
WOULD THE FACTORY INJECTOR PUMP BE ABLE TO BE ADJUSTED UP ENOUGH WITHOUT EXTREME MODIFICATION.
ANYONE AWARE OF A SMALL SIMILAR TURBO'D DIESEL IN A JD OR OTHER UNIT THAT MIGHT BE CLOSE. MAYBE I CAN SCORE SOMETHING ON EBAY..
ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE 5011 TRACTORS AND OVERHEATING?
ALSO THINKING.. IS THERE A RADIATOR THAT WILL FIT IN THE FACTORY HOOD TIN THAT WAS FROM A LARGER MOTOR?
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME, DAVE
ITS JUST SO NICE TO HEAR THAT TURBO SPOOL UP ON A DIESEL... : ) : )
WOULD THE FACTORY INJECTOR PUMP BE ABLE TO BE ADJUSTED UP ENOUGH WITHOUT EXTREME MODIFICATION.
ANYONE AWARE OF A SMALL SIMILAR TURBO'D DIESEL IN A JD OR OTHER UNIT THAT MIGHT BE CLOSE. MAYBE I CAN SCORE SOMETHING ON EBAY..
ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE 5011 TRACTORS AND OVERHEATING?
ALSO THINKING.. IS THERE A RADIATOR THAT WILL FIT IN THE FACTORY HOOD TIN THAT WAS FROM A LARGER MOTOR?
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME, DAVE
- Joined
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- 3,975
- Location
- Laag Zuthem
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- Renze
Machinery:
1976 5718
1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
If you have the fine mazed radiator it will be due for overheating even without a turbo. I ran a radiator off a 5718 for a while, it was quite an improvement, i could keep it running at 115C without holding back (it boils at 120C ) however the exhaust manifold and silencer were so hot that they allmost became transparent.
Problem was that the old radiator, once taken from a wrecker, two tractors ago, was porous and kept leaking at the cooling system pressure you get at 115C
I bought a new radiator, for a 4 cylinder which is the same physical size. Together with the BMW 5 blade fan which the previous owner installed to deal with the overheating issues, i can keep it at a constant 90C without glowing exhaust manifolds, bursting hoses or holding back, even though i cranked the fuel pump up about 1.5 revolution. The tractor doesnt smoke unless under 1000rpm, so i guess the previous owner also decreased the fuel a bit because of the overheating.
I am assuming 60hp from this engine, with no visible smoke above 1500rpm. (maybe the 63mm exhaust pipe of a 7340 Super Turbo adds to the better breathing)
It now pulls a 10.000 liter manure injector tank, where it struggled even more with 5800 liter when we first bought it.
Oil consumption dramatically decreased since then, these engines will particularly use oil when they never work. When this series came out, they put them on a dynometer at the dealer to break in the piston rings, when they knew that the customer would only use it for cattle feeding or haymaking.
p.s. since the year of mfg. is 1986 it must be a 5211, not a 5011. Our 5245 is also from 1986 and they started making them in 1984
Problem was that the old radiator, once taken from a wrecker, two tractors ago, was porous and kept leaking at the cooling system pressure you get at 115C
I bought a new radiator, for a 4 cylinder which is the same physical size. Together with the BMW 5 blade fan which the previous owner installed to deal with the overheating issues, i can keep it at a constant 90C without glowing exhaust manifolds, bursting hoses or holding back, even though i cranked the fuel pump up about 1.5 revolution. The tractor doesnt smoke unless under 1000rpm, so i guess the previous owner also decreased the fuel a bit because of the overheating.
I am assuming 60hp from this engine, with no visible smoke above 1500rpm. (maybe the 63mm exhaust pipe of a 7340 Super Turbo adds to the better breathing)
It now pulls a 10.000 liter manure injector tank, where it struggled even more with 5800 liter when we first bought it.
Oil consumption dramatically decreased since then, these engines will particularly use oil when they never work. When this series came out, they put them on a dynometer at the dealer to break in the piston rings, when they knew that the customer would only use it for cattle feeding or haymaking.
p.s. since the year of mfg. is 1986 it must be a 5211, not a 5011. Our 5245 is also from 1986 and they started making them in 1984
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- DFERRERA777
SORRY FOR THE ALL CAPS, ONLY WAY I CAN TYPE FAST 
RENZE DID YOU USE A TURBO EXHAUST MANIFOLD ONLY OR WAS IT A TURBO MOTOR YOU WERE RUNNING. AND HOW TO TELL FINE MAZE OR OTHERWISE ON THE RADIATOR?
DID THE 4 CYL RAD. HAVE A THICKER CORE/ EXTRA ROWS?
ODDLY, ALSO IM HAVING REAL PROBLEMS EVEN GETTING THE NEW BEAUTY UP AND RUNNING, SAT FOR A WHILE, THEY HAD RUN BOTH SIDES OF THE INJECTOR PUMP PRETTY DRY OF OIL. IT WOULD SHUT DOWN ON THEM AFTER 20-30 MIN (ONLY GOT 1 DROP OUT OF THE FRONT PUMP AND A CAP-FUL OUT OF THE REAR) WITH THE SIDE COVER AND CAP OFF I T ALL SEEMS TO MOVE, RACK MOVING, PISTONS PUMPING. CRANKS DECENT FAST WITH A MIX OF BLACK AND WHITE EXHAUST BUT REFUSES TO START. FRONT CYLINDER GETS WARM, CENTER AND REAR COOL. PULLED THE 2 REAR INJECTORS AND PULLED THE NOSE CAPS , FREE'D UP 1 AND CLEANED BOTH. SAME PROBLEM.. INJECTOR PUMP WEAK?? ANY IDEA WHAT THE FINISH FUEL PRESSURE SHOULD BE? CYLINDER PRESSURE?
ANY IDEAS WOULD BE GREAT.... IVE REPLACED BOTH FUEL FILTERS AND HAND PRIMER(BOSCH) , NEW FUEL LINES, BLED THE SYSTEM TO THE INJECTORS BUT SEEM TO GET NO FUEL OUT OF THE TOP RETURNS OF THE INJECTOR?? ITS KILLING ME TO NOT HEAR HER RUN
AHH, THANKS RENZE ABOUT THE 5211/ 5011 NOTE, I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT THAT.. ANY IDEA WHAT CHANGED. I GUESS I SHOULD CLARIFY THAT MINE IS AN AGRIPOWER 5000 WITH A FACTORY GLASS CAB.???
ANYTHING YOU COULD ELABORATE ON ABOUT MY NEW MACHINE WOULD BE GREAT.
THANKS SO MUCH, AND BEST FROM SUNNY CALIFORNIA
???
RENZE DID YOU USE A TURBO EXHAUST MANIFOLD ONLY OR WAS IT A TURBO MOTOR YOU WERE RUNNING. AND HOW TO TELL FINE MAZE OR OTHERWISE ON THE RADIATOR?
DID THE 4 CYL RAD. HAVE A THICKER CORE/ EXTRA ROWS?
ODDLY, ALSO IM HAVING REAL PROBLEMS EVEN GETTING THE NEW BEAUTY UP AND RUNNING, SAT FOR A WHILE, THEY HAD RUN BOTH SIDES OF THE INJECTOR PUMP PRETTY DRY OF OIL. IT WOULD SHUT DOWN ON THEM AFTER 20-30 MIN (ONLY GOT 1 DROP OUT OF THE FRONT PUMP AND A CAP-FUL OUT OF THE REAR) WITH THE SIDE COVER AND CAP OFF I T ALL SEEMS TO MOVE, RACK MOVING, PISTONS PUMPING. CRANKS DECENT FAST WITH A MIX OF BLACK AND WHITE EXHAUST BUT REFUSES TO START. FRONT CYLINDER GETS WARM, CENTER AND REAR COOL. PULLED THE 2 REAR INJECTORS AND PULLED THE NOSE CAPS , FREE'D UP 1 AND CLEANED BOTH. SAME PROBLEM.. INJECTOR PUMP WEAK?? ANY IDEA WHAT THE FINISH FUEL PRESSURE SHOULD BE? CYLINDER PRESSURE?
ANY IDEAS WOULD BE GREAT.... IVE REPLACED BOTH FUEL FILTERS AND HAND PRIMER(BOSCH) , NEW FUEL LINES, BLED THE SYSTEM TO THE INJECTORS BUT SEEM TO GET NO FUEL OUT OF THE TOP RETURNS OF THE INJECTOR?? ITS KILLING ME TO NOT HEAR HER RUN
AHH, THANKS RENZE ABOUT THE 5211/ 5011 NOTE, I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT THAT.. ANY IDEA WHAT CHANGED. I GUESS I SHOULD CLARIFY THAT MINE IS AN AGRIPOWER 5000 WITH A FACTORY GLASS CAB.???
ANYTHING YOU COULD ELABORATE ON ABOUT MY NEW MACHINE WOULD BE GREAT.
THANKS SO MUCH, AND BEST FROM SUNNY CALIFORNIA
???
- Joined
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- Renze
Machinery:
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1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
No, i dont even run a turbo yet. i'm afraid the one i have from a Volvo 1.9 TD engine is too big and wont spool. Its better suited for a four cylinder engine.
To get it running, pull the PTO shift lever (left hand) all the way up to ground PTO, and put the hi low (right hand) lever in neutral. put transmission in reverse. Then hook another tractor up to it with a PTO shaft and crank it that way.
We have cranked a lot of old tractors back to life with this feature on a Zetor PTO. you can run it in reverse so the engine turns the right direction, even with two tractors back to back.
To get it running, pull the PTO shift lever (left hand) all the way up to ground PTO, and put the hi low (right hand) lever in neutral. put transmission in reverse. Then hook another tractor up to it with a PTO shaft and crank it that way.
We have cranked a lot of old tractors back to life with this feature on a Zetor PTO. you can run it in reverse so the engine turns the right direction, even with two tractors back to back.
When my father was young, he cranked (cold start) his porshe tractor, wich had front pto, with the same principle.
When porsche was needed, MF 165 was driven to front and it did rotate porshe to get it running. And whe it was cold, porsche really needed some cranking
EXCEPT one time My father forget to put porshe gearbox to neutral. Then it offcourse started right away.
When porsche was needed, MF 165 was driven to front and it did rotate porshe to get it running. And whe it was cold, porsche really needed some cranking
EXCEPT one time
My father forget to put porshe gearbox to neutral. Then it offcourse started right away.
- Joined
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- Messages
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- Location
- Laag Zuthem
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- Renze
Machinery:
1976 5718
1978 5718 35kmh: Work in progress
1967 3011
Markku, i once put BOTH tractors in reverse, and got my brothers 6718 running in reverse !! there was white smoke coming out of the air filter and it knocked hard at every injection. I shut it off real fast, because off course the engine oil pump would suck out the oil of the engine back into the sump when running in reverse...
I never knew that 4 stroke engines could run in reverse... Lanz 2 stroke engines were notorious for opposing direction when they idled very low at a road crossing, when you wanted to pull off again, it would take off in reverse because it sometimes didnt make it past TDC and would hit back and run in opposed crankshaft rotation !! My neighbour had a milk ride for a milk factory with a Lanz, and it happened to him a few times..
I never knew that 4 stroke engines could run in reverse... Lanz 2 stroke engines were notorious for opposing direction when they idled very low at a road crossing, when you wanted to pull off again, it would take off in reverse because it sometimes didnt make it past TDC and would hit back and run in opposed crankshaft rotation !! My neighbour had a milk ride for a milk factory with a Lanz, and it happened to him a few times..
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